1. Winstar Craps
2. Winstar Craps Ante
3. Winstar Craps Rules
4. Winstar Craps Odds
5. Winstar Craps Ante
6. Winstar Craps Table
7. Winstar Have Craps

Playing craps at winstar casino. When the roll is a 7 or 11 on the come-out roll, it is a natural and the player wins. On the other hand, if the roll is 2, 3, or 12, it is craps – and the player loses. Any other number (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, or 10) becomes the player’s point.

Do you have to do a pass line? What if you did nothing then did come bets?

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Pass line bet is not required but, you'll still have to put a $1 ante for your first come bet (or place bet, etc.) - basically, any time you jump into a hand, you're on the hook for the ante.
I like the thought of sticking with the pass line since it will keep me rooting with the rest of the table - a big part of why I play craps - the crazy community it creates!

If you don't want to increase your bet and you insist on making a PL bet, with all due respect, I don't know what you think anyone can do for you. Is there an ante on, 'Center Action,' bets? If there is no ante on those, then they are all going to have a lower House Edge than paying that $1 vig if $5 is going to be your Max PL bet. Even the horrendous Any Seven (which you should still not make!) would be better than a PL under the conditions you state.
If you want to go with the lowest Expected Loss on a per roll basis, then I would suggest sticking to the Hardways and not worrying about any single-roll resolutions like Hop Bets, Yos and Crap Checks. Just sit there and cover the Hardways, go with a PL if shooting is worth a buck to you. How much do you take in Odds?

My original question still stands - Overall, does it help or hurt to sit out the come out rolls until a point is established? I think it helps - just need to find time to do the math to confirm.
Thanks for taking an interest!

Okay, I think I misunderstood what you were wanting to know in the OP.
The bet that you are referring to is a Put Bet, and they have certain House Edges:
33.33% on the 4 & 10, which means you lose $1.6665 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $2.6665.
20.00% on the 5 & 9, so $1.00 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $2.00.
9.09% on the 6 & 8, so $0.4545 on a $5 bet, plus the $1 vig, so $1.4545.

Winstar Craps Ante

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Now, you're automatically losing $1 on the Come Out roll plus (5*.0141), for a total of $1.0705.
It goes without saying that doing your Pass Line bet is the better bet on a per bet basis, however, if you are looking for longevity, then you are going to lose the $1 per bet resolved ON THE ACTUAL COME OUT ROLL 12/36 times.
Okay, so on those other 24/36 times, you will establish a Four or Ten 6/24, Five or Nine 8/24 and Six or Eight 10/24:
(6/36 * 2.6665) + (8/36* 2) + (10/36 * 1.4545) = 1.29288888889
Therefore, you are still losing $1.29 per Come Out Roll betting this way. However, if you do not PUT BET the 4 & 10:
(8/36* 2) + (10/36 * 1.4545) = 0.84847222222
Then, you are (Only?) losing $0.85 per Come Out Roll, which is an improvement. If you only PUT BET the 6 & 8:
(10/36 * 1.4545) = 0.40402777777
Then, you are losing $0.40 per Come Out Roll, so that is your best option, but you won't be in action nearly as often.Lots of Oklahoma casinos have ways of avoiding the ante. Here are some of the more popular ones:
The house pays the ante during a 'happy hour', usually in the afternoon on weekdays.
The ante is waived (paid by the house) on bets over some amount (usually $20)
The ante is waived (paid by the house) if you play using a players club card
About 1/3 of the casinos in the state just pay the ante for the player by default. I don't remember any of those having craps, though...

Actually comma can you just wait for a point of a six or an eight and then do a $6 place bet on the opposite and pay the dollar bill?

Are you dictating your posts, like thru Siri or something?
That would make 'actually comma' make sense ;-)
Was the OP named 'comma', now I gotta go back and look...?Okay for all of you guys that know everything, are bubble craps machines nothing more than a slot machine?
Can you back up what you are writing with facts?Well, it's because more and more of these machines are showing up around the country! They also are showing up where they can't have table games, so if that is the case are they slot machines?

Well, it's because more and more of these machines are showing up around the country! They also are showing up where they can't have table games, so if that is the case are they slot machines?

Bubble craps machines are probably considered 'slot machines' just as much as video poker machines are. If the bets are handled electronically and no staffers (dealers/croupiers) are needed, then it is probably considered a 'gaming device' just like a slot machine. Is there a reason you need to know if the specific term 'slot machine' applies to them?
One exception I can think of to 'they're showing up where they can't have table games': California. Casinos that were opened or had their compacts renegotiated (e.g. to add more machines) after 2010 have a stipulation saying that no games that use 'physical dice' are allowed. While I have a feeling this was targeting the versions of craps that, while cards determine the actual numbers, dice are used to determine which cards are drawn, it almost certainly applies to bubble craps as well.

Bubble craps machines are probably considered 'slot machines' just as much as video poker machines are. If the bets are handled electronically and no staffers (dealers/croupiers) are needed, then it is probably considered a 'gaming device' just like a slot machine. Is there a reason you need to know if the specific term 'slot machine' applies to them?
One exception I can think of to 'they're showing up where they can't have table games': California. Casinos that were opened or had their compacts renegotiated (e.g. to add more machines) after 2010 have a stipulation saying that no games that use 'physical dice' are allowed. While I have a feeling this was targeting the versions of craps that, while cards determine the actual numbers, dice are used to determine which cards are drawn, it almost certainly applies to bubble craps as well.

Yes, there is a reason and it goes like this, I don't like information that can't be proven and is nothing more than fiction that is passed on to anybody that wants to read it! Common sense would tell you that they are slot machines if the casinos can't have table games but now have these bubble craps machines that are now showing up in more casinos!
If they are slot machines do they have to act like real live table games? There may be a big misconception that they have to act like real table games when they don't have to because in fact they are a slot machine! Standing back and looking at the machine are the players thinking that they are playing real craps when they are not?

Yes, there is a reason and it goes like this, I don't like information that can't be proven and is nothing more than fiction that is passed on to anybody that wants to read it! Common sense would tell you that they are slot machines if the casinos can't have table games but now have these bubble craps machines that are now showing up in more casinos!
If they are slot machines do they have to act like real live table games? There may be a big misconception that they have to act like real table games when they don't have to because in fact they are a slot machine! Standing back and looking at the machine are the players thinking that they are playing real craps when they are not?

I would look up the laws in the state you want to know more about. It's to my understanding, in Nevada, if a machine has a dice or poker card feature, it must be random.
I hear people saying they are not random, and the machines are using magnets or something like that to cheat(*rolls eyes). If that's the case, it makes me wonder why most casinos don't allow you to earn points(oftentimes they start out allowing you to earn points and then quickly disallow from point earning) on something that is acting like a slot and is basically cheating people? They should be giving away triple points, running promotions and encouraging people to play their craps 'slot'.
If they can gaff bubble craps to not play fair why dont they just make more games like spin poker VP add FPDW, FPJW etc etc and gaff the hell out of them?
Why not gaff all the Video BJ as well?
I'm not sure why any halfway educated gambler would want to play them for any serious money or time in the first place, unless they have an advantage, or they are just messing around wasting time or whatever.

Okay for all of you guys that know everything, are bubble craps machines nothing more than a slot machine?
Can you back up what you are writing with facts?

For W2G purposes, they are treated as a slot machine rather than table game.
They are legal in some jurisdictions in which live table games are not because they fall under the definition of an electronic game.
In terms of randomness, for Nevada at least, any game that uses cards, dice, roulette wheel or other physical implement that would have set odds must have the probabilities correspond to what the odds would be. In other words, it could be RNG based, but the programmed probabilities would have to be the same as actual physical dice...at least in Nevada.
You'd do well to examine other states individually.

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?

Philisophical slot machines? Legal slot machines, IRS slot machines, de facto slot machines, ...you want evidence and FACTS?
OKAY.... here is the important fact: Professional gamblers, bookmakers, million dollar bettors are reliable.
Casinos are betting that they are indeed slot machines... they are betting millions... so that makes them slot machines. I ain't seen no casinos ripping the machines out due to massive losses. Nor does there seem to be teams of parasites sucking chips from those machines.
After all the preliminary tests casinos put new games to, the final test is to put it on the floor and see what happens. Casinos saw. They are happy.
So its a slot machine even if the lawyers came up with that designation for some legal reason. Its a slot machine.

Can you back up what you are writing with facts?

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Philisophical slot machines? Legal slot machines, IRS slot machines, de facto slot machines, ...you want evidence and FACTS?
OKAY.... here is the important fact: Professional gamblers, bookmakers, million dollar bettors are reliable.

Winstar Craps Odds

Casinos are betting that they are indeed slot machines... they are betting millions... so that makes them slot machines. I ain't seen no casinos ripping the machines out due to massive losses. Nor does there seem to be teams of parasites sucking chips from those machines.
After all the preliminary tests casinos put new games to, the final test is to put it on the floor and see what happens. Casinos saw. They are happy.

Winstar Craps Ante

So its a slot machine even if the lawyers came up with that designation for some legal reason. Its a slot machine.I think we need to get to the real reason the question is being asked.
There are people that think if they are a slot they can be programmed to do funny things and hold whatever the casino sets them to hold. I'm not buying it, at least not in most US jurisdictions.

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Winstar Have Craps